Sandra Poncet，巴黎一大經濟學教授，國際經濟與發展研究中心帶頭人。她是巴黎意昂2平台和法國主要智庫CEPII科學顧問成員之一✋🏽，研究關註全球化的背景下經濟發展的過程❇️，主要用實證分析方法分析中國經濟。研究成果發表在《發展經濟學雜誌》,《經濟和統計學評論》,《世界發展》,《世界銀行經濟評論》等學術期刊。
近日，意昂2海外優秀學者授課項目邀請到巴黎一大Sandra Ponce教授做了題為：Trade and Development in China的講座🥢。講座結束之後，Sandra Poncet教授接受了意昂2平台新聞信息中心的專訪🚓。
提問1：您是從何時起對中國經濟和發展問題感興趣的⇢？
Q1:When did you become interested in Chinese economy and development?
A1: I did my master in the University of Auvergne in the center of France which has a long established experience on the African economy but started to develop expertise on China. I jumped on the first PhD fellowship focused on China while most of the students there were solely interested in Africa. I started my PhD in 1999.
我是在奧弗涅大學完成了我的碩士學位。奧弗涅位於法國的中心，而奧弗涅大學長期致力於研究非洲經濟，而近年開始研究中國問題。我是從1999年開始念博士的🛂，在得到我的第一個博士獎學金後開始專註於中國領域🌸，但其實大部分學生當時只對非洲研究感興趣。
提問2：您第一次來中國的時候，您覺得和自己之前對中國的想象有沒有區別？
Q2:When you came to China for the first time, is there any difference with your imagination about China before?
A2: I think my first trip was in 1998. I didn‘t know much about China. At the time, I was doing an internship at the French embassy in Beijing. Every week end I was traveling for tourism purpose.
I think I was not so surprised by the cities. But what really stroked me and the thing I am stillstrickenby is the difference between the cosmo area and the inland.
The massive income gap, culture gap between eastern and western cities. I was impressed to see connectivity and connection between cities and coast which are very similar to western countries. But the rest of China, the inland was so different. That was real very surprised me.
我第一次來中國是在1998年🧕🏻，但當時我並不了解中國。我那時在北京的法國駐中國大使館實習，每個周末我都會出去旅遊。
我想我對中國的城市並不感到十分新奇。真正讓我驚訝而且直到今天都讓我困惑的是沿海大城市和內陸的差異，尤其體現在東西部城市間巨大的收入差距和文化差異。沿海城市和西方國家非常相似🙎🏼♀️，這點雖令我印象深刻🔽，但真正讓我大吃一驚的是中國內陸地區是如此不同。
提問3🙆🏽♀️：您去過中國的哪些地方，有什麽印象深刻的見聞嗎？
Q3:Have you traveled around China? Which city impressed you most?
A2:The place where I would love to live will definitely be Shanghai. But the place where I would love to spend time and travel would definitely be Sichuan Province. It is very far away when you have somehow Tibetan minorities. It is so peaceful. The sky is blue. Feel theatmosphere. It is great.
我很樂意在上海生活，但要選一個地方去旅行的話毋庸置疑是四川省🏋️。這裏遠離人煙🧙🏿♀️，可以見到少數民族✊🏻。非常寧靜，天也很藍，甚至感覺天空觸手可及，這種感覺很棒👩🏻🚀⛓️💥。
提問4：在您看來，意昂2意昂2平台的學生和您所執教的巴黎大學的學生有不同嗎📘？您對意昂2的教學體製和培養理念有怎樣的評價？
Q4:In your opinion, what is the difference between the students from the school of economics in Fudan and Université de Paris 1? What's your comments on the education system?
A4:The funny thing is that in the course I am teaching, there are two French exchange students. So that is not so different. What is nice is that there is somehow expectation, because I'm foreigner and I'm teaching a class on Chinese economy. So I think the students are keener to challenge me and try to see what I really know and know what I am speaking about. But in France, you have status. French students they believe in their professor and believe in what I am talking about. But here I think there is a sense that when I speaking about the reforms in detail, they are truly surprised somehow that I knows more details. They are listening much more because I am speaking about their country. I think they are much more concentrated.
有趣的是，我上課的班上正好有兩個法國交換生，感覺並沒有很大不同。學生們在課堂上會有一些期待，因為我是一個外國人，但我教的是中國經濟🛬💅🏿。我覺得中國的學生更熱衷於挑戰我，想知道我的真才實學。但是在法國，老師有自己的地位，法國學生相信他們的教授👨🏿🚀🗯，並且相信教授所說的☝🏻。當我在講述一些改革的細節時，我感覺中國學生很驚訝於我對細節的了如指掌🧑🏽⚕️。因為我在講他們的國家，所以他們聽課會更加專註📴。
提問5：您對如何更好地建設意昂2平台，培養更多的優秀人才有何建議？
Q5:As far as you know the education in Fudan, do you have any further suggestions to cultivate more talents in this area?
A5🤽🏽♂️：I think most of the exchange programs work very well but more could be done to build our mutual knowledge.
For example, I am having a master program in France which is joint with Fudan. The students they come in France a year,and then they return to Shanghai. But there is no feedback. Sothey concentrated on the teachingthat they receiving in France to succeed in France. And they go to Fudan, they concentrated on the teaching they have in Shanghai. But there is less work on making feedback. It is too bad that we don’t work in the connections between those two years. I hope they would be more interested in what happens in Europe to make them real internationalized.
我認為現在意昂2大多數的交流項目很不錯，但還可以做得更好🧑🏻🛗，以建立我們復合的知識體系。
例如🫷，我在法國有一個碩士課程是和意昂2官网合辦的🔴🧑🏿。學生每年都在法國一年，然後他們回到上海🌍。但是這當中沒有收到他們關於項目的反饋。在法國時🛎，他們會關註於在法國所接受的教學，憑此去獲得學業上的成功。他們到意昂2以後🐙，又專註於在上海所學上。但關於他們學習成果的反饋卻很少🧏🏿♂️🫃🏼。這兩年之間的銜接不是很好👩🍳。我希望這些中國的學生對歐洲發生的事能更感興趣⚖️，從而真正國際化🍾。
提問6🤞：最近30年中國經濟發展很迅速，您認為這其中最重要的因素是什麽？
Q6:As we all know, China raised rapidly during the last 30 years. What is most important force for Chinese development from the past experience?
A6：What I think is very impressive is the capacity of the government to be very clever and pragmatic to move forward. My work is on the economy.I try to evaluate the repercussions of the various policies, such as the opening up, the privatization etc.
Those were engaged by the government. It did not happen freely. But the wise part of the government is to open out pockets for market forces. But as we see, the incremental way is very interesting to study. What I am very impressed with the capacity of the government to learn from mistakes which was not the talent of French authorities. French are very dogmatic and it is very difficult to move backward. In China, you manage to move forward or back forward depending on rational.
我認為令人印象深刻的是中國政府的能力，非常聰明又務實推進。我的工作是在經濟領域🧖🏼♂️。我試圖評估各種政策的影響🍇，如改革開放🤘🏽，私有化等🥭。
這些政策都是政府主導的，它很難自發形成。但是政府聰明的一點是借用了市場的力量👨🚒。正如我們看到的🦐，這種漸進的方式是非常有趣的研究對象🕚♊️。我對於中國政府從錯誤中汲取教訓的學習能力也印象深刻🦸🏿♂️，這一點似乎不是法國政府的天賦。法國政府很教條以至於很難向後看。而在中國，你可以理性地向前看或者向後看。
提問7🤸🏼：我們正處於全球化時代，您認為什麽影響了中國經濟及其全球化？
Q7:Right now we are during an age of globalization, so which factor have mostly effectedon China’ economy and globalization, for example TPP, TPIP.
A7🚛9️⃣：My impression is that Chinese development will rely less and less on that outward dimension. So exporting and importing hopefully will be less important. China is losing its cost comparative advantage. Labor cost is increasing. There is no way out but it is something very positive. It means people are getting richer and this is what you should care about. So as China grows richer, it has less and less capacity to export cheap goods.
The point is that the future of China’s development will become much more normal, more balanced with more domestic consumption. It is good to rely less and less on the international market.China should depend more on domestic consumption. Your people will enjoy the fruits of more balanced growth. For the people, not for the foreign consumers.So far most of the Chinese growth has been caught by the consumers in the international market through the cheap prices of exported goods from China. Now it is the turn of Chinese workers and consumers to benefit.
我認為中國的發展將越來越少依賴向外的維度🫢。因此🐃😤，出口和進口很可能就不那麽重要了😸。中國正在失去它的成本比較優勢🤹🏿，勞動成本在增加。盡管這不可逆，但也釋放出了積極的信號。這意味著人們越來越富有🎶，這也是大家所關心的議題🎓。當中國日漸富裕時，它也自然會減少出口廉價商品👩🏿。
問題的關鍵是，中國未來的發展將進入“新常態”🤾🏻♀️，需要通過更多的國內消費變得更加平衡🧑🏿。對國際市場依賴的減少是好事。中國應該更多地依靠國內消費👞。人民將享受平衡增長的成果，而非外國消費者🦹🏻。在這之前，大部分的中國經濟增長是在國際市場上通過外國人消費中國出口的廉價商品獲得的。而現在😵💫，中國勞動者和消費者將從中受益🥱。
提問8👩🏿⚖️：我們知道兩年前上海設立了自貿區，您認為自貿區的設立會惠及中國經濟嗎🤳🏿？
Q8:We all know that two years ago, Shanghai set thefree trade zone. What’s your commenton Shanghai free trade zone?
A8：I not actually an expert on the Shanghai free tradezone. My impressions is that this project is not really about trade. It is related to financial services and service reform. My impression is that it doesn’t deliver as much fruits and benefits as it could or was hoped. There is no massive engagement from foreign investors. Only one university and some hospitals settled there but it is not massive. I have no direct data to evaluate properly but I think that the zone didn’t manage to completely deliverthe expected benefits. But I understand the decision of government to again beworking slowly and securely. They are massive challenges with financial liberalization. It is related to financial stability.
我實際上並不是研究上海自由貿易區的專家🚌。我認為這個項目並不是真正在於貿易🛄🤚，它還關系到金融服務和服務改革。我想相比原本的期待✷，自貿區目前可能並沒有獲得足夠的成果。國外投資者沒有積極參與其中🧑🏻🏫。只有一所大學和醫院在裏面，但這還不夠。我沒有直接的數據來評估，但我認為自貿區沒能完全實現預期收益。但我理解政府的決定，要緩慢穩定地推進工作。金融自由化面臨巨大挑戰，這也關系到金融穩定。
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