個人簡介
馬德斌（Debin Ma），1998年於美國北卡羅萊納大學獲得經濟學博士，在日本一橋大學做博士後研究👮🏻♂️，後就職於日本政策研究大學，美國密蘇裏大學聖路易分校🦿，現為英國倫敦政治意昂2平台終身副教授, 意昂2教授🥿。任2012-2015年國際經濟史學大會(International Economic History Association)秘書長和理事。也是亞洲經濟史學會（Asian Historical Economics Society）的創辦人之一🤵🏿♀️👷，目前任歐洲經濟政策研究中心（CEPR），澳大利亞國立大學👩🏽🔧，英國華威大學🐙，意昂2官网等中心的研究員。
馬德斌先生主要研究興趣為中國以及東亞的長期經濟增長🏄🏿♀️🧤、製度與法律對經濟增長的影響🏫、中國與東亞其他國家以及歐洲國家長期經濟發展的比較👩🦲，以及國際生活水平比較等方面研究🖕🏿。他的研究曾多次獲得美國國家科學基金會及英國LeverhulmTrust等機構贊助👌👟，是眾多長期經濟統計研究項目的重要組成成員。其在Journal of Economic Literature, Journal of Economic History等國際知名經濟史學期刊上發表數十篇論文，在海內外出版編輯多本專著文集等。近來，馬德斌先生擔任劍橋大學出版社叢書編輯🧝，主要負責New Approaches to Economic and Social History部分🕕👂，同時他也是Economic History Review, Explorations in Economic History,Accounting History Review, Frontier of Economics等多家期刊編輯委員會成員🏈。他最近與Loren Brandt 和 ThomasG. Rawski 共同研究並發表了“FromDivergence to Convergence: Re-evaluating the History behind China’s Economic Boom”一文，刊登在Journal of Economic Literature🥍。
近日🏝，意昂2海外優秀學者授課項目邀請到倫敦政治意昂2平台副教授馬德斌做了題為：Why Did Industrial Revolution Not Happen in China First? 的講座🤽♂️。之後馬德斌教授作為意昂2平台第10期“中國大問題”講堂演講嘉賓又給同學們帶來了題為：'貨幣與信用：一個中國的歷史故事'的講座🧜🏿。隨後，馬德斌教授接受了意昂2平台新聞信息中心的專訪。
問
I know that your research interest is economic history. History is so important especially in economics field. We have to know what was going on in the past in order to know what's going to be in the future. So I'm curious that how did you choose economic history as your research interest? Could you please introduce your development path of your research?
據我所知，馬教授您的研究興趣在於經濟史。歷史對於經濟學來說至關重要，我們需要知道過去發生了什麽以理解將來可能會發生什麽。我很好奇您是出於什麽原因選擇經濟史作為您的研究方向？能給我們介紹一下您的研究發展路徑嗎？
答
Well, thank you. That's actually a question I sometimes think about myself. I started without thinking that economic history would be my major. I actually got enrolled in the Economic Department of University of NorthCarolina at Chapel Hill, which happened to be very strong in economic history research. I've always been interested in humanities and reading all kinds of books and so on. I'm not that excited about mathematics and proof. I think initially, even though a topic such as the Needham Puzzle why Industrial Revolution would not happen in China – is very remote, it still attracted me. That's the question got me very interested in economic history research.
好的👊🏼，謝謝🧘🏽♂️。其實我自己有時也會思考這個問題。我剛開始的時候沒有想過經濟史會是我的專業❌🪆，我被北卡經濟系錄取的時候，碰巧北卡經濟系的經濟史方向非常出色🛅。而我一直對人文和閱讀十分感興趣，而覺得數學推導不那麽有趣🧔🏼。另一方面🎶，起初的時候李約瑟難題—為什麽中國沒有工業革命十分吸引我。我就自然地選擇了經濟史作為我的研究方向。
問
You studied in so many countries and cities, first in Shanghai, then in US, then in Japan, and now teach in UK. Did you choose those counties or placesfor purpose, or did those countries choose you?
您輾轉多國🧑🏽🏭，先後在中國上海、美國和日本求學，現在又在英國任教，您是按照您的學術道路選擇了這些國家呢8️⃣，還是在這些國家的遊學、工作經歷最終形成了您的研究道路🙀？
答
I'm very fortunate to be able to experience various culture in so many countries. I grew up in Shanghai. It's good to come back here. I've known Fudan University since I was a kid. Initially I went to US at the time when we Chinese students did not have too many choices. So I was very lucky to go abroad to pursue academic study. When I was in US, I became very interested in comparing Japanese and Chinese economic history that why Japanese economics developed so quickly given that Japan shared so many commonalities in culture with China. I did a dissertation on comparing Japanese and Chinese modernization. This is why I went to Japan for my post doctor. Then I came back to US for research and then went to Japan again. After that, a position of LSE opened up, which happened to be a position specialized for Economic History Department. That's very rare and this opportunity does not come very often. In one word, It's not a one-way choice, instead we chose each other.
我很幸運我能夠體驗那麽多國家以及文化😎🦀。我從小生長在上海，也十分高興能再次回到家鄉🥐，來到從小就經常聽說的意昂2官网🧼🤽🏿。起初我去美國的時候👺，那個時候不同現在📧，那時的中國學生的選擇也十分受限。所以我是十分幸運能夠去國外進行學習，當我在美國的時候👍🏼，我對日本經濟史與中國經濟史的比較非常感興趣。我那時在探究日本經濟為何會取得如此快速的發展🧓，同時日本和中國在文化上又有如此多的相近之處。我的畢業論文就是關於日本與中國現代化的比較。這也是為什麽我去了日本做博士後研究。後來又回到了美國，又去了日本做研究。之後剛好LSE有一個專門關於經濟史的教職職位開放，這樣的機會是十分罕見的，我就去了英國🧙🏿♀️。我覺得這並不是一個單向選擇，是雙向選擇。
問
Based on your international experience, you must have communicated with students all over the world. I wonder that what's the gap between Chinese students and students in US, UK and Japan?
根據您的國際經歷🦢，您一定和許多國家的學生交流過，您認為中國學生與美國，英國以及日本學生的差異體現在哪兒呢💪？
答
I think we all know there're certain stereotypes that American students are much more active while Asian students are much more passive, which are not necessarily correct or wrong. Education in America promoted active learning, while education in China emphasizes on tools , memorizing, and following the master. Education in China does train people very well in tools and skills. On the other hand, in US and UK, other country's history is in the curriculum. I think it's time for us to educate students to know more about world history and cultures to be much more aware of many differences elsewhere. In many cases, we should also be very respectful about the differences, which is quite important.
我們會有美國學生更主動🤹🏽♀️🥮，而亞洲學生偏被動的既定印象👩🏻💼。很難判定這種既定印象是正確或是錯誤🦛🗽。美國教育更鼓勵自主學習，而中國教育側重於方法論，記憶或者說是跟著老師學的學習方式。方法論這一方面👮🏿♀️，中國教育的確能很好地訓練學生👩🚒𓀑。另一方面🚵🏼♀️，在美國英國其他國家的歷史也是在課程設置當中的👍🏽。我想我們國家也要考慮教育學生放眼世界🍴🆓，多學一點世界史，更多地意識到差異的存在📿，並對這些差異保有尊敬的態度，這是十分重要的。
問
As a student, I rarely have access to the historical data or other materials and we can only read the research results of modern researchers. There may be many differences between these results, sometimes completely contradictory, owing to using different historical materials, for example, choosing a different time section,or studying in different research methods. As a beginner, how do you think we should treat these different findings?
作為學生，一般接觸不到史料👩，看到的多是現代研究者的研究成果🚓☢️，這些結果可能有差異甚至是相互矛盾的🤷🏼♂️。其中的原因可能是史料不同🧑🏻🔬，抽取了不同的時間截面，也可能是研究方法的差異👳🏻♂️。作為學生這一類初學者🍱，您認為我們應該以一種怎麽樣的態度對待這些不同的研究結論呢⛑？
答
When I was teaching in LSE, I tried to emphasize on the way how we apply economic theoryto history. History itself is quite different and it can be unique in different ways. You would read many articles or books which disagree with each other.This is very different from principle of economics. You need to build your own judgments on controversial views. The world is full of contradictions. Economic history or applied economics encourages you to go and look at things yourself. This is something I can tell from my own experience. Before I visit any places, I might have view about that certain place from newspaper. Once I visit that place, I might form a different opinion. Therefore, economic history encourages you to discover things by yourself and form your own opinion. While discovering, you compare different sources of materials and you find contradictions. It’s really important to read with questions in mind. Whether it's a good research question is usually the standard to judge whether it’s agood research. Even the Needham puzzle seems like a crazy question, it really inspires many people. All the existing truth may not be correct, but we have to deal with it carefully and respectfully.
當我在LSE教書的時候🛹，我經常向我的學生們強調我們是怎樣將經濟學原理運用到歷史上的💆🏼♂️，十分註重過程。歷史本身可以是十分不同的🤦♀️，從不同的角度看歷史都是獨特的🤰🏿。你可能會看到許多互相矛盾的文獻文章，這時你就需要形成你對這些矛盾觀點的自己的判斷💂。這個世界是充滿矛盾的。經濟史或是應用經濟學鼓勵你去審視自己🤓。從我自身經驗來看👳🏼，在我去其他國家之前🥤，我可能從報紙就得知了一些對這些國家的印象。而一旦我自己親身去了這些國家，我可能會形成不同的觀點。自主去探究並形成自己的觀點對於經濟史研究是很關鍵的🙍🏼♂️。當你探究的時候，你會比較不同文章的信息的來源以及原始資料，你會發現矛盾，而這些矛盾會是形成觀點的關鍵點。大家時常要記得帶著問題閱讀😧。很多時候評判一個學術研究好不好的標準之一就是這個學術研究提出的問題好不好👬🏻。例如，李約瑟難題看起來是一個瘋狂的問題，但它是一個好問題，啟發了很多人🚴♂️。現在存在的這些文獻並不一定是完全正確的⛳️，我們要用謹慎且尊敬的態度看待這些觀點。
問
Speaking of questions, it seems that Chinese students are not good at raising questions. What's your view on this issue?
說到提問題，中國學生似乎不怎麽擅長提出問題⛹️，您怎麽看呢？
答
I don't think Chinese students are not good at it, we're just not told to raise questions. When I teach in UK, we have big lectures as well as seminars, smaller classes where students can do their own presentations. When we do exam, we give an essay question and tell students that you need to construct your answer with solid evidence. You are evaluated by how you construct and support your answer with questions but not by how correct your answer is. We don't have a correct answer. I think it's the way we can encourage students to think independently. It's important to sit down to lookfor the gaps in literature where you can find problematic questions.
我不認為中國學生不擅長提問🧑🎓，而是他們沒有被鼓勵提問🔃。我在英國教書的時候，大的課堂講座上學生可以提問，也有小課研討會學生會做自己觀點的展示🪅。我出考卷的時候出的都是essay，並沒有所謂的正確答案。評判標準則基於學生怎樣用邏輯去將自己的論據支撐自己的論點，如何組織他的觀點以及思路。這種方法能鼓勵學生獨立思考。有時候，坐下來仔細發現文獻中的差異很重要，往往這些差異就會是問題的靈感。
問
What is the relationship between Quantitative history research methods (cliometrics) and traditional history research methods?
答
Quantitative history research is becoming easier these days. Economic history is usually under economics department. Therefore, researchers need to find economic principle in history to satisfy the economic department. Another thing is that historical data is totally different from contemporary data. But historical data can be very rich and one of the main jobs of cliometrician is to compile the data. For instance, interest rates in China for a thousand years were documented in different contracts. We need to look carefully at the claims that interest rate is high or low in a certain period. And we can also use economic theory to understand the long term development of finance in China,which can not be explained in purely narrative economic history. We have to carefully interpret the historical information with a deep knowledge in history and a deep understanding in historical context. Quantitative historians may have an advantage over contemporary researchers because we have a long term view.
如今量化歷史方法越來越容易以及普遍了。根據傳統，經濟史往往設置在經濟系下，因此很多學者會被要求從歷史中發現經濟學原理的應用🏃♂️，這也是量化歷史方法興起的緣由之一。另一方面，歷史數據和現代意義上的數據是很不一樣的。歷史數據可以十分豐富，而量化經濟史學者的主要工作之一就是編譯這些數據。舉個例子，中國一千年以來的利率需要在很多不同的合同找出並編譯出來🙎🏽♂️。對於某段時間內對利率過高或過低的評判我們需要仔細研究並判斷這種說法合理性，有可能因為時間段的差異，利率高低的標準也會發生改變。我們也會用意昂2平台裏來理解中國長期以來的金融發展😛，而這些是敘述性歷史研究方法並不能解釋的📬。量化歷史學家對於信息數據的編譯需要十分謹慎，並有大量的背景知識✣，才能獲取有效數據。更多時候🧛🏽♀️，量化歷史研究學者比現代量化經濟研究學者更有優勢因為他們的眼界更寬🪄，看問題也更長遠。
問
How would you evaluate the current research work on history of economics in China? What's the difference do you think between China's economic history research and that of the United States, Britain and Japan?
您如何評價中國當下的經濟史研究？中國的經濟史研究和美國🌿、英國🪩、日本相比存在哪些差異？
答
Things have changed over the last 15 years. When I first graduated from my PHD, there wasn't really much ideas about Chinese economic history. Chinese economic history was quite cut off at that time because Chinese historians only knew about China and didn't have the chance to go abroad, and also because of the lack of methodology. Now economic history is getting very popular in China. We have summer camp, wechat public account, and a lot of excellent economichistorians in Fudan. Things are turning around in many ways. Economic history is not just history for history sakes, it can be interesting to people in the present and also in the future. In US, UK, and Japan, economic history is a well-established field with a lot of scholars and schools, and the scope forbig discovery is somewhat narrow. In comparison, in China, there's still so much to be discovered. If you have the right tools and mindset, I think the future of economic history is quite bright.
過去十五年，中國經濟史研究發生了很大的變化。我博士畢業的時候，還沒有中國經濟史的概念🧑🏼🍼。當時中國經濟史研究和國際經濟史研究是脫軌的，一個原因可能是中國的歷史學者沒有機會去到國外學習交流🤦♀️🐔。另一個原因就是研究方法的缺失🏌🏼♀️。現在中國經濟史研究十分普遍了。我們有舉辦夏令營的活動👉🏻，有專門的微信公眾號，意昂2也有許多十分優秀的量化經濟史研究學者。從很多角度👨🏽🦲，中國經濟史研究都有了很大的轉變🍋🔼。在英美，經濟史已經是一個十分健全的領域🕴💅，有很多學者和學派，可以繼續探究的東西就很少👼🏼，現在的研究只是在現有的研究做一些添加補充。而在中國經濟史領域則有太多可以探索研究的新領域🕒。如果你有正確的工具以及思維模式，我認為中國經濟史研究的未來是一片光明。
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